That's not to mention the older ones like the 6mm Remington or the. 6.5 Grendel vs 6.5 Creedmoor: Which 6.5 Is Right For You? It is also about the same size as a BB pellet. Having a chat with a buddy the other day who insisted that a 16" 6mm ARC would outperform a 16" 6mm Creedmoor using the same bullet (both in bolt guns). As a follow-up exercise, I plan to use QuickDesign software to create a more accurate model for the 6mm . It's case length is close to 6mm ARC; The biggest differences between the 6mm PPC and the 6mm ARC are the shoulder angle (30 for 6mm PPC, and 40 for 6mm ARC), and the base-to-datum spec for the shoulder (6mm ARC is pushed back further). The 6.5 Creedmoor is slightly larger and more powerful than the other two cartridges. During PRS competitions, shooters must quickly engage targets at a variety of ranges all the way out past 1,000 yards. These include the weight of the bullet, the velocity at which it is fired, and the type of ammunition it is made from. This means an average of 100 to 200 fps higher muzzle velocities from the better BC bullets out of the 6mm Creedmoor, so it beats the 243 Winchester in the energy, drop, windage and ballistics departments. Many of these are match bullets like the Hornady ELD Match, the Berger VLD, or other boat tail hollow point (BTHP) and open tip match (OTM) bullets that arent ideal for big game hunters. At 1,000 yards, the 6mm Creedmoor drifts about a foot more than the 6 . This helps us keep this site going, and does not affect the price you would pay usually in any way whatsoever. Posted: 3/17/2020 1:36:19 PM EST [#2] Quote History . Comparing 6mm ARC to 6mm CR is is apples and oranges again. So, if you are looking for something to shoot at targets with, the sixmm ARC is a great choice. 22-250 vs 223 vs 204 RUGER vs 220 SWIFT: CLASH OF THE SPEED DEMONS. Re: 6XC vs. 6mm Creedmoor Both Copper Creek and McCort amunition have several loadings for the 6mm Creedmoor on properly headstamped brass. I used the Hornady Ballistic calculator and Shooters Calculatorto compare wind drift, the range each bullet goes subsonic, and recoil for the cartridges. It is more suited for the shorter action rifles like AR-15s and the Howa Mini Action rifles. Velocity At short to medium distances, the 6mm ARC and the 6.5 Grendel are fairly evenly matched, with a slight advantage going to the 6mm ARC. The 6mm Creedmoor has a trajectory thats virtually the same as the .243 Winchester and significantly flatter than the 6.5 Creedmoor inside of 500 yards. If youre in the market for a new rifle, youve probably come across the 6mm ARC and 6.5 Creedmoor calibers and are wondering which one is better. No one shooter could tell me what rifle was chambered in what cartridge based on felt recoil. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. If you already have an AR chambered in 6.5 Grendel, the ONLY thing you need to change is the barrel. Cal. In a word, yes. The 6.5 Creedmoor commonly uses 120gr, 140gr, and 143gr bullets. It may not display this or other websites correctly. That is not cast in concrete however and many larger CXP3 animal have been taken with 6mm Creedmoors, but usually either at long range with high-shoulder shots, or close range with headshots, but this is not recommended. The competition is timed, so first round hits are ideal, but theres more to these competitions than small shot groups. Definitely not worth arguing. It can be used for everything from target shooting to hunting, and its also relatively inexpensive to reload. The gunsmith would need a 6mm Creedmoor reamer to create a chamber in the barrel for it. Both of these calibers have their pros and cons, but in the end, the 6.5 Creedmoor is a better choice for most shooters. The 6mm Advanced Rifle Cartridge (638mm), or 6mm ARC for short, is a 6 mm (.243) caliber intermediate rifle cartridge introduced by Hornady in 2020, as a low- recoil, high- accuracy long-range cartridge, designed for use in the AR-15 platform at request of a specialized group within the U.S. DoD for its multipurpose combat rifle program. With Howa releasing the ARC as predicted it will have a decent following and should easily over take the Grendel in popularity. We still have a long way to go and selection is still nowhere near where it was back in 2019, but things are a lot better now than they were even 6 months ago. Like the .243 Winchester, the 6mm Creedmoor is also a really good varmint as well as big game hunting cartridge. Like I do with my semi's, rifle & pistol, parts availability, large aftermarket support and readily available reloading components/ammo will need to factor into whatever I decide on. With just a minuscule .8 separating them, the two Creedmoor cartridges have almost an identical amount of wind drift. With barrels of equal lengths and a 200-yard zero, the 6.5 ELD Match bullet drops 6 inches more at 500 yards than the 6mm ELD Match. PS - If anyone needs a box of 6mm Creedmoor 105 gr BTHP Hornady BLACK, 20 rounds, and lives in Southeast Michigan, send me a PM, I'll give ya a good deal Click to expand. From the ballistic standpoint, the .244/6mm Rem. The average muzzle energy of the 6mm ARC is about 2300 ft-lbs, while the average muzzle energy of the 6.5 Creedmoor is around 2700 ft-lbs. The Lapua cartridges are for handloaders only, but Hornady offers match-grade 6mm and 6.5 Creedmoor ammunition. Before we get started, I have an administrative note: Some of the links below are affiliate links. We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to amazon.com and affiliated sites. It may not display this or other websites correctly. As can be seen with the Kudu bull taken at 180 yards late evening with a well place head shot. So, take all that for what you will. Even though the two InterLock loads use the exact same bullet, the 6mm Creedmoor does still have an advantage in wind drift over the 243 since it fires that bullet at a faster initial velocity. rifles come with 1:10 twists, which are not quite quick enough to stabilize today's longest, highest B.C. Ill also provide some information on how it stacks up next to the .243 Winchester and 6.5 Creedmoor cartridges so you can decide if it fits your needs as a hunter. EAR PROBEST CASES-- Cedar Mill Iron Clasp Case: https://amzn.to/2JazLHi--Plano All Weather Tactical Case, 52-Inch: https://amzn.to/2OvGdZd--Bow case Plano 108110 Bow Guard AW: https://amzn.to/2H39GpiMAPS-- OnX Hunt App: https://smart.link/5cfa7dbd77da1-- OnXHunt app: https://amzn.to/3bg07RSOUR GEAR STORE USA: https://www.amazon.com/shop/bullets4bucksDisclaimer: Do not attempt any stunts seen on this channel. ?This told me that felt recoil is not as much about numbers as it is about the person pulling the trigger. ELD-X . Make sure you subscribe toThe Big Game Hunting Podcastand follow The Big Game Hunting Blog onFacebook,Instagram,Twitter, andYouTube. In short, the 6mm Creedmoor has the advantages of the .243 Winchester (flat trajectory and low recoil) and combines them with the best features of the 6.5mm Creedmoor (wind resistance and the ability to use long, low drag, high BC bullets). If youre looking for a round that can do it all, then the ARC is the one you want. Why would a guy opt for the ARC over the Creedmoor in a bolt action? 18 Bartlein with a Manners CS2 stock. 6MM Creedmoor; 6.5 Creedmoor; 308 Win; MLR 28 Nosler; 7MM Rem Mag; 300 PRC; 300 Win Mag; AR-15 Complete Uppers 204 Ruger; 22 Nosler; 223 Wylde; 5.56 NATO; 6MM ARC; 6.5 Grendel; 6.8 SPC; 300 Blackout; 350 Legend; 450 Bushmaster; 9MM; AR-10 Complete Uppers 22-250 Rem; 243 Win; 6MM Creedmoor; 6.5 Creedmoor; 308 Win Someone keeps forgetting to tell John Whidden that he cant spank the Creedmore fanboys at the Wimbledon matches with his 20 deg shoulder, low pressureed, overly tapered 243 Win. Gardner realized that the 6mm Creedmoor fit the bill perfectly for PRS use, so he modified an AR-10 to use the new cartridge. Additionally, I recorded an entire podcast episode on this exact subject. So far my "go to" 6GT load is a 112gr Barnes Match Burner at 2900 FPS. Heres why: First and foremost, the new ARC is designed to be more durable than its predecessor. It's not even worth a discussion, even in a 16in barrel the 6CM is hundreds of fps faster than the 6ARC. I have a rifle being built for me right now, a Badrock but it is going to be late summer before I see it. It can accomodate the newer, longer and heavier 6mm bullets that offer good ballistic coefficients, whilst still shooting them a fast muzzle velocities without too much recoil. All of these cartridges have a very mild recoil that most shooters and hunters should be able to handle. The rifle and cartridge performed beautifully and Snows column about the whole project appeared in the August 2010 issue of Outdoor Life. I had always been told you need a certain length barrel for certain calibers. 100-grain load exiting at 3,100 fps, and the .243 Win. That's borne out by current factory ammo specs showing the 6mm Rem. I know of several instances of people that Ive known who have bought new rifles in a particular cartridge specifically because they could get ammo for it. If you have any doubt how well Hornady does this look no further than the 6.5 Creedmoor. For these shots, high shoulder is recommended. 6ARC will be cool if Howa ever sells it as a barreled action on their mini action. What the 6mm Creedmoor absolutely excels at though, is those same small to medium CXP2 type animals, but at long range, with consistently expanding high-BC match bullets like the Hornady 108gr ELD-M or the Berger 105gr Hybrid Target. The 6mm Creedmoor and it's smaller siblings like the 6mm Dasher, BR, and BRX offer all kinds of options to shooters. The larger the caliber, the more stopping power it will have. You are using an out of date browser. Wait til after hunting season? On the other hand, 6mm Creedmoor rifles usually have a faster rifling twist (1:7.7 in the case of the Ruger Precision Rifle), so the cartridge is commonly available with 103 grain, 105 grain, 107 grain, 108 grain, and 112 grain bullets. Disclosure: Some products are provided by companies as samples or by friends for testing and evaluation. In fact, I now only have RCBS dies for all of my calibers except the rare wildcat calibers that RCBS do not make dies for. An excellent choice of6mm Creedmoor ammo for hunting deer and pronghorn, the LRX BT still offers effective terminal performance and the deep penetration on larger game thats essential when elk and red stag hunting. A mild recoil also facilitates with spotting misses and taking a rapid follow up shot both at the range and afield. With similar advantages for precision rifle competition shooting as the 6.5 Creedmoor, the 6mm Creedmoor is also a superb competition cartridge, especially for small caliber long range shooting and PRS competition shooting. The 6mm ARC was designed to match specific DOD requirements while fitting in the AR15 platform. The new 6mm ARC from Hornady is currently gaining huge popularity as the newest 6mm on the block, and although it has its merits, ballistically it does not come close to the 6mm Creedmoor ballistics as it cannot hold nearly as much propellant. All things considered though, the three cartridges are very accurate, flat shooting, and hit hard enough for use on a wide variety of game at practical hunting ranges. However, the extra recoil is not enough to make the Creedmoor unmanageable for most shooters. The powder capacity isn't even close. Many 6mm-caliber cartridges are used for various shooting purposes because they provide excellent accuracy and light recoil. FORLOH AllClima Softshell and AllClima Stretch Woven Pant Review. I shoot 105 Berger hybrids from mr 6br but dont hunt with it to know what damage they do. The data used to compare the trajectory of the cartridges was obtained from Hornady (here, here, and here). https://www.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/load-data/6mm-ARC-gas-108-110gr-data.pdf, https://www.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/load-data/6mm-arc-bolt.pdf, Peterson Brass Belted Mag Basic Unprimed Box of 50, .300 Weatherby Mag 170 G Hammer Custom Hollow Review help. So, the Creedmoor has about 17% more energy at the muzzle than the 6mm ARC. Since this article is focused on the performance of these cartridges for hunting, I didnt include any ballistic data past 500 yards in the table above. You'll need a new barrel, bolt, and mags. 6mm Dasher Load Data - What The Pros Use. In addition to their ammo intended for competition shooting, Nosler also recently began offering factory loaded 6mm Creemoor hunting ammunition. Hornady's new 108 ELD-Match needs a twist of 1:8. Barnes currently offers their VOR-TX LR line of ammunition in 6mm Creedmoor and its another great choice for big game hunters who want the best possible performance at extended range for hunting. At 1,000 yards, the 6.5 drops 23 inches more than the 6mm. A shorter action and longer barrel life. Nosler also offers their Trophy Grade hunting ammo in 6mm Creedmoor. This law also restricts communications that promote an organization such as ours. Compared to 5.56 NATO, the 6mm ARC offers substantially less drop and wind deflection and provides the ability to shoot much more accurately at longer distances. Another factor to consider when choosing a caliber is recoil. First you will see the video showing a guy that has hunted hundreds of those sized animals with his 6mm Creedmoor at long range and high shoulder shots. The recoil impulse of the 6.5mm Grendel is also significantly heavier than 5.56x45mm. Nosler provided the data used to compare the recoil of the .243 Winchester (here). case, being based on the .257 Roberts hull, has slightly more powder capacity than the .243 Win., and it's therefore capable of imparting a bit more velocity. What bullet it takes and stabilizes is a function of the barrel more than the cartridge, with the same barrel specs the .243 would actually stabilize the longer projectile better via its higher velocity. Bullets4Bucks is a participant in affiliate advertising programs designed to provide income. 6.5 Grendel. Review: Hornady 6mm ARC. In this video. 6mm ARC vs 6mm GT vs 6XC vs 6 Creedmoor Panther Hollow 2.85K subscribers Subscribe 213 Share 11K views 1 year ago PLEASE READ.. DONATE TO THE CHANNELPayPal: bullets4bucks@gmail.comFOLLOW USFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/bullets4bucksTwitter: https://www.twitter.com/bullets4bucksInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/bullets4bucksBullets4Bucks is a product of Pure Wyoming Productions LLC, an Wyoming Limited Liability Company#onxhunt #truproducts #proforsho #hunting #deerhunting #elkhunting #howa1500 #athlonoptics #bearhunting #antelopehunting #huntingvideos #hunt #vortexoptics #bullets4bucks #publiclandowner Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. The much newer 6mm Creedmoor is by far the least common. For the sake of discussion, why do you believe that the ARC will overtake the Grendel? Unlock the Benefits of Knowing Your Winchester Serial Number, Complete Buyers Guide to the Sig Sauer P228. Demand for the new cartridge rapidly grew during the ensuing years. If they offered a plus plus P (plus pressure) for bolt action rifles, another 100fps should be in reach. He mentioned that he wants to invent a new cartridge by necking down a 6.5mm Creedmoor to a 6mm and that it would make a mean varmint cartridge. at 2,960 fps. We have the Brass in stock along with Dies. Create and promote branded videos, host live events and webinars, and more. The .223 does have advantages, though. The designers of the 6ARC wanted to create a round that would compete with the famous 223/5.56 in an AR platform, but it needed to shoot flatter at long-range. Since its still a relatively new cartridge, most hunters probably dont know very much at all about the 6mm Creedmoor. We talk to multi-discipline professional precision rifle shooter, Bryan Zolnikov about his rifle, reloading equipment and load development methods. Hornady introduced 6mm Creedmoor factory ammo loaded with match and hunting bullets in early 2017. I know what. The 6mm Creedmoor or 6Creed as some call it, was a natural evolution as with almost any other 6.5mm Creedmoor that was eventually necked down to 6mm for faster muzzle velocities and lower recoil for PRS style racegun competitions. However, the cartridge began turning heads in the hunting community. Some of the greats are (from left) 6mm BR Norma, 24 Nosler, .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, and .240 Weatherby Magnum. Its bigger and more popular than ever before, with new tournaments and leagues popping up all the time. While competition shooters were quick to adopt the new cartridge, the small benefits it offers over more established calibers like the .243 Winchester probably arent significant enough to justify making the switch for most hunters during normal times. The case volume of the 6mm Creedmoor is on average 51.7gr H2O, with a case length of 48.77mm, and for the 243 Winchester of 53.6gr H2O with a case length of 51.94mm. If youd like to learn more about how the 6.5 Creedmoor stacks up to a few other popular hunting cartridges, read the articles below. As their names imply the biggest difference between the 6mm Creedmoor and the 6.5 Creedmoor is the bullet class. Your point about rifle availability is a valid point. I would have to get dies, brass, and bullets to reload for the 6mm ARC. As a result, the NRA is forced to restrict the sending of certain materials and information into California. Required fields are marked *. Bill, Appreciate your input. Like the Nosler Ballistic Tip ammo, their 6mm Creedmoor Trophy Grade ammo is also best suited for deer sized game. The first thing to consider when choosing a rifle caliber is what you will be using it for. 6ARC will be cool if Howa ever sells it as a barreled action on their mini action. Team Hornadayis the master, bar none. In general, larger calibers are better at delivering more energy to the target and creating a bigger wound channel, while smaller calibers are lighter and easier to carry. I think on paper the 6cm factory loadings seem much better than 25-06 mainly because the cartridge is designed for long high BC bullets, and the 25-06 offerings seem to start fast and slow quick. You can expect the barrel life of the 6 ARC to last 5,000 rounds (similar to a 7.62 NATO), in part because it's burning less powder. Deviating from Soviet design, the ARC takes on a 30-degree shoulder angle; this is common with . Case capacity of the 6mm PPC is about 33 grains of water. Take that for what you will, but no animal will be able to tell the difference between an additional 100-200 ft-lbs of energy with a well placed bullet though. If we look at the debate of the 6mm Creedmoor vs 6.5 Creedmoor for PRS shooting and competitions, both have their own merits. The biggest advantage of the 6mm ARC is its extremely high ballistic coefficient (BC). With that said, lets take a closer look at the terminal ballistics of the two calibers in question. In a bolt action The 6 Creedmoor rifle is easier to come by in good rifles. The 6.5 Creedmoor commonly uses 120gr, 140gr, and 143gr bullets. The .223 75-grain bullet, by contrast, drifts more than 15 inches at that range, and the ARC's advantage becomes more pronounced at longer ranges. These factors make the 6mm Creedmoor very forgiving of range and wind estimation errors while at the same time helping to maximize the shooting abilities of the hunter to the greatest possible extent. Fortunately, there are also plenty of other good 6mm hunting bullets that will work very well in the 6mm Creedmoor. The general rule of thumb for caliber to animal size, is 6mm, 243 Win, 270 Win and up for any smaller CXP2 type antelope, and 30-06 Spingfield or larger for CXP3 medium to large game. Aside from having very slight differences in their overall length, the only other difference between the 6mm Creedmoor and the 6.5mm Creedmoor is the fact that they shoot 6mm and 6.5mm bullets (.243 and .264) respectively. There is also 6mm Creedmoor SRP brass available offering small rifle primer holes for shooters preferring small rifle primers, the only benefit I have actually been able to prove with small rifle primer brass, is that the primer pockets take longer to stretch when running hot loads. 25-06 vs 6.5 Creedmoor vs 270 Winchester: The Results Might Surprise You, 6.5 PRC: Ultimate Guide To What You Need To Know. I love my Uintah rifle it shoots beyond my expectations for what it is. The Creedmoor has about 17% more recoil than the ARC, so it is a bit more punishing to shoot. Well yes, about 7% less velocity means a little bit less recoil. Its also offers match grade accuracy. For that reason, it combines incredible accuracy with consistent performance across a wide range of impact velocities. F-1 Proof Stag Custom Lightweight AR in 6mm ARC, 6mm Creedmoor rifle for sale - Short Action Customs. Ultimately, it is the shooters that decide which new wildcats or cartridges become popular and are there to stay and which arent. The .243 Winchester only has a maximum SAAMI pressure of 60,000. The 6mm Creedmoorin the same fashion of its larger counterpartfits those bullets very well. This includes not only information about their purchase and use, but also the promotion of firearm safety and training. Case capacity of the 6mm ARC is 34 grains. The 6mm 109's offer several advantages," said Bryan Litz, Berger's Chief Ballistician. 6,685 Location Morrison, Colorado All I see on the shelves around Denver are 6cm, 25-06, and 300wsm. Your email address will not be published. The other 2 was Remington actions ALL with a full bull Bench-Mark barrels 1in 7.5 twist. The statistics shown above demonstrate the advanced speed capabilities of the 6mm ARC. : 108gr/.559 Muzzle Velocity: 2900 MPBR: 326-y. Is the 6mm Creedmoor the latest flavor of the week that will fade when the next big fad comes along? Yeah the creed has the advantage, everything else being the same. Mag. You must log in or register to reply here. These high velocity, rapidly expanding bullets arent really suitable for big game hunting, but theyre absolutely devastating on varmints and predators. Other shooters took notice of how well the rifle and cartridge performed during PRS competitions that year and began ordering 6mm Creedmoor rifles from Gardner. Im shooting 108eldm out of my 6mm creedmoor and really messing them up. Thats understandable because, while the new cartridge has performed very well during practical shooting competitions since its introduction, the 6mm Creedmoor only started making the transition into the hunting community in the last couple of years. The 6 Creed wins every time, if we are talking velocities. Thanks for your support. This video or description may contain affiliate links. The Perfect 6.5 mm Cartridge The 6.5 mm Super LR is a 6.5 mm wildcat cartridge with a powder capacity of 55.5 gr of water weight (i.e. All three cartridges have the same rim .473 diameter and they are all close enough in overall size that they are used in short-action rifles. Not much info out there on them. For this reason, the 6mm Creedmoor has less recoil and a generally flatter trajectory, but the heavier and larger diameter 6.5 Creedmoor bullets have more frontal surface area, more resistance to wind drift, and carry more energy down range. It is also much harder to control on full-automatic. Loaded with a high BC 103 grain ELD-X bullet, 6mm Creedmoor Precision Hunter ammunition has a flatter trajectory and carries more energy down range than any other factory loads for 6mm Creedmoor hunting ammo currently available. Both cartridges have a much flatter trajectory than the 6.5mm Creedmoor. The 6mm ARC's exterior ballistics are good, enough thanks to its use of high BC projectiles, to allow it to run with the .308 Winchester when shooting long. Depending on how much shorter he actually made it, this could be the case as the rare wildcat 244 Mashburn cartridge also had the same rim, also very little tape in the case body, and also featured a 30 degree shoulder, but this again could not be verified other than that claim. 6.5 Grendel vs 300 Blackout Review & Comparison, 11 Reasons The Leupold VX-6HD Is An Outstanding Hunting Scope, 450 Bushmaster vs 45-70 Review & Comparison, 28 Nosler vs 300 Win Mag Review & Comparison, Best 22 Hornet Ammo For Hunting Coyotes, Bobcats, & Other Varmints, 15 Best African Hunting Books For When Youre Dreaming Of Being On Safari[2023], Best 350 Legend Ammo For Hunting Deer, Hogs, Bear, & Other Game, Best 6.8 Western Rifles for Hunting Ultimate Guide [2023], Best 300 PRC Ammo For Hunting Elk, Deer, Bear, & Other Game, Best 6.5 PRC Ammo For Hunting Deer, Elk, Bear, & Other Game, Best 350 Legend Rifles for Hunting Ultimate Guide [2023], Best 6.8 Western Ammo For Hunting Elk, Deer, Bear, & Other Big Game, Ballistic Coefficient (BC): .512 (G1) .258 (G7), Muzzle Velocity: 3,050 feet per second (2,127 ft-lbs of muzzle energy), Muzzle Velocity: 3,100 feet per second (2,027 ft-lbs of muzzle energy), Muzzle Velocity: 3,200 feet per second (2,046 ft-lbs of muzzle energy), Ballistic Coefficient (BC): .436 (G1) .215 (G7), Muzzle Velocity: 3,150 feet per second (2,094 ft-lbs of muzzle energy), Muzzle Velocity: 3,210 feet per second (1,990 ft-lbs of muzzle energy). Top Precision Rifle Shooter Bryan Zolnikov Talks With LoadDevelopment.com. 6.5 Grendel The 6mm ARC delivers comparable performance from a wider assortment of bullets, making it a more versatile choice. In simple terms, it's essentially a "6mm Grendel" with the "Creedmoor" treatment, alterations to the shoulder and casing for better feeding, more consistency, and ease of mass production. My take on this is, why opt for 1 when you can have both? Cartridge - Powder Fill % Charge Vel. I'd say that for peak performance they do. This is "6mm ARC vs the Creedmoors" by Hornady Manufacturing on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them. .5.56 is generally loaded to higher pressure than .223. Their 6mm Creedmoor Ballistic Tip ammo is great for hunters who want a really fast expanding bullet that rapidly delivers a tremendous amount of energy to game. The 6mm Creedmoor also has about 7% more energy at the muzzle and about 27% more energy remaining at 500 yards than the .243 Winchester with the ELD-X bullets and about 14-17% advantage in energy with the InterLock bullets. does tommy lee jones have cancer,